Navigating the messy middle of tech projects with Rachael Morgan

In this episode of The Digital Lighthouse, host Zoe Cunningham speaks with Rachael Morgan, an experienced Head of Technology. She has worked in different industries from the NHS, Betting and Gaming, and is currently in finance. 

Zoe and Rachael dive into a challenge every technology leader will recognise. Between the excitement of project kick off and the celebration of delivery lies a difficult and unpredictable phase that often determines success or failure: the infamous messy middle. It is the period where unknowns surface, processes expand or falter, and teams must navigate complexity while maintaining momentum.

Drawing on her experience across regulated industries and large scale engineering environments, Rachael explains why tech projects get messy, why process alone cannot fix it, and why the human element always sits at the heart of delivery. She also shares the leadership practices and mindsets that help teams survive and thrive through the toughest parts of a project.

Discover

• Why even well-planned technology projects face a messy delivery phase and why this is normal
• How process frameworks like Agile, Lean, and ITIL help. and where they create accidental complexity
• The dangers of both over-processing and under-processing, and how to find the Goldilocks zone of “just enough” structure
• Why technology problems are nearly always human problems in disguise
• How leaders can understand individual strengths and use them to improve delivery outcomes
• Why continuous communication and simple metrics are critical to spotting real delivery risk early
• The importance of self-awareness in leadership and how regular reflection helps leaders navigate uncertainty and emotion more effectively 

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe so you don’t miss future conversations. We’d also appreciate a quick rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — your feedback helps us continue delivering valuable insights. 

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Episode highlights:

• 03:52 – What the “messy middle” means in tech delivery
• 08:47 – Process frameworks, complexity, and making the right choices
• 11:30 – How much process is “just enough”?
• 14:18 – Learning from other leaders and industries
• 21:18 – Humans are messy, and that is a strength
• 23:56 – Understanding individuals and leadership at scale
• 28:11 – Why leaders must understand themselves

About our guests

Transcript

[00:00:00] Zoe Cunningham: Hello and welcome to The Digital Lighthouse, where we get inspiration from tech leaders to help us navigate the exciting and ever evolving world of digital transformation. I’m Zoe Cunningham.

[00:00:11] We believe that meaningful conversations can illuminate the path forward, helping us harness the power of technology for innovation, scalability, and sustainability.

[00:00:22] Today I’m absolutely delighted to welcome Rachael Morgan. Rachael is the Head of Technology and Data at Flutter Entertainment PLC, having previously held multiple leadership roles in data engineering and delivery at Sky Betting and Gaming. Rachael has an extensive background in technology and project management since her start as a project manager in the NHS.

[00:00:43] In her current role, she’s accountable for the comprehensive management and leadership of six global teams of data engineers, including delivery, operations, maintenance and strategic management of critical services.

[00:00:55] In this episode we’ll be exploring the messy middle of technology projects. How after the fanfare of project starts and before the congratulatory wrap up of a successful delivery, we often find ourselves wrestling with challenges that we are not always certain we’ll be able to overcome.

[00:01:13] Rachael will take us on a journey through the pitfalls we can encounter in the technology process and people aspects of leading a project, and equip us with some tips and techniques for getting through and out the other side in one piece.

[00:01:26] So Rachael, welcome to The Digital Lighthouse. Your career’s taken you from the NHS into the gaming industry, which I imagine are two very different environments.

[00:01:37] Can you tell us about your journey and how that journey and your different experiences have shaped your views on leadership?

[00:01:45] Rachael Morgan: So firstly, thank you so much for having me. It’s an honour to be on this podcast. And my journey, I mean, I would summarise my journey as being really about leadership and learning to be a better leader.

[00:01:57] So, Zoe, you’re right, the two industries that I’ve primarily worked in are very different in lots of different ways, but, so too of my roles in those different companies. But there are also commonalities. So they’re highly regulated industries, they have a real theme and whole at their core: the importance of keeping their customers safe.

[00:02:20] And that’s something that I’ve taken with me throughout my career and has been a priority in any role I’ve had.

[00:02:29] If I was to sum it up, it really is about leadership and leadership with that lens of being customer focused.

[00:02:36] Zoe Cunningham: I really like the emphasis in, talking about the kind of gaming industry of keeping customers safe. Because obviously there are regulations, like you say, and presumably best practices in how you do that. And I think that’s often overlooked when thinking about that as an industry. So I love that as an analogy to the NHS.

[00:02:56] Rachael Morgan: Yeah, I think it’s… It’s so important to understand how we use technology and as a leader in technology, that’s always at my forefront is the impact of the systems and the processes that we build, and certainly working in data, we have so much data as a society, we are constantly producing data. But how we use and what we use that data for is really important because not everything that we could use that data for is appropriate in the context, is safe for our customers and really as a leader in technology, understanding that dimension of what you do and how you lead is really important to me.

[00:03:36] Zoe Cunningham: Fantastic. I know already I’m going to enjoy this conversation. So, I think the main question that we’re gonna talk about today can be summed up with, as you know, what is the biggest secret of data engineering that no one outside the industry knows?

[00:03:52] Rachael Morgan: It’s such a good question, and I don’t know whether it’s… outside of like, people who are outside of the industry don’t under don’t know it, but perhaps it might be that they, they’re busy solving their own problems and maybe they don’t necessarily need to or they don’t understand.

[00:04:08] This idea of ‘the messy middle’. Zoe, you mentioned that there’s the fanfare at the start of a project and then you have that, ‘yay! We’re so amazing! We’ve delivered the value!’ moment, which is great, and I’m not taking away from the importance of both of those stages, but that period of time where the delivery happens.

And it can be a bit of a black box to the outside, which in some cases is fine, but I think that’s where the tenacity and the determination of the leaders involved and how they lead their teams and how they manage their teams and the processes used and the technologies and the approach they take is really, really important because it’s in that stage where basically you deliver or you don’t deliver the value that you’ve committed.

[00:05:10] Zoe Cunningham: Right. Because delivery as well, I think sometimes seems like an all or nothing, like a binary yes or no. But actually there’s amounts you’re able to deliver, right? There’s actually a scale. There’s, you know, NFRs, Non-functional Requirements, that you are meeting or not meeting. There’s actually a lot of ways in which you can deliver sub optimally.

[00:05:32] So before, before we get onto that. Building a new piece of technology. I think it can look, you know, particularly from the outside, like you pick your tech, right? First thing you do, you pick your tech, then you do some iterative development. You know, maybe build a bit, build a bit, build a bit. We all know that you don’t build it all in one chunk ’cause you might get it wrong. You do a little bit at a time.

[00:05:55] And then tadda, you know, you’ve got a product.

[00:05:59] But surely if you’re doing that, how, how does it, how does it get so messy?

[00:06:04] Rachael Morgan: Well, I think it comes back to the fact that even though we are talking about technology and that is binary, we are working with humans and that is the fundamental core to leading in technology and with technology.

[00:06:20] I don’t think AI actually changes that. Mm-hmm. I think AI is a very interesting topic, but I still think that the way that humans deliver technology and how you lead that is the key to successful delivery in technology. Because it’s really, really important to prioritise that. Absolutely. When you’ve got your, your technology, you’ve chosen what path you want to take, and I’m hoping that you know the scope of what it is that you’re trying to deliver, but it’s the human beings that then are doing the work to enable you to get from the fanfare to the conclusion – that is where most of that messy middle happens.

[00:07:07] Zoe Cunningham: And it’s an important thing to remember because it feels sometimes, like you say, particularly with AI, maybe people are imagining forward to this, this future where the technology just writes itself, press a button and it, and it does the magic. But actually for the, the kind of complexity of even relatively simple technological systems, right? They’re so complex. It’s only really humans and not just one human, right. Multiple humans that can sort this out.

[00:07:37] And of course we’d learn about project mess, back in the seventies with books like The Mythical Man Month and how people are not a, a scalable unit like an AWS server, obviously that wasn’t around in the, in the seventies. But I think we, we had this picture of like, people were just these scalable units that you added onto projects. And there’s been so much thinking and so much development since then. Why, why are we not able to just follow the process? And it, and it all just works? ‘

[00:08:15] Rachael Morgan: cause there’s so many different processes.

[00:08:18] Zoe Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:18] Rachael Morgan: And I think that we’re… Technology is quite, is very complex. I mean, you’ve just said that there’s also the fact that technology sits within its ecosystem, which makes it even more complicated.

[00:08:32] But processes in itself. There are so many different schools of thought when it comes to process. I mean, you’ve got ITIL, you’ve got Lean, you’ve got Six Sigma, you’ve got Agile, which, you know, maybe you’ll debate with me whether that actually is a process, but, I think it’s…

[00:08:47] That difference, those different processes that you can or can’t take mean that you are making, you’re constantly making a decision as a leader as to the, the right and the most appropriate process perhaps, that you could be using. and also then like the amount of process that you put into a delivery.

[00:09:07] So too much process – you will slow things down. Too little process – you create chaos. And in a regulated industry process is very important. You know, we, we have particular, governance frameworks and compliance requirements that we absolutely need to make sure we adhere to.

[00:09:26] And I’m all in favour of things like building capability into systems that make delivery for engineers quicker. So, you know, building your SDLC into the configuration of your system, that kind of thing is, is very good. Perhaps not while you are delivering the key deliverable that you’re trying to get done, but that’s good architecture to build into the system that will just enable your pipelines to move quicker.

[00:09:50] Zoe Cunningham: So I’m actually not familiar with the term SDLC. Can you just explain to me a bit about, what you mean?

[00:09:56] Rachael Morgan: Yeah, of course. So I shouldn’t use acronyms. so Software Development Lifecycle, it’s the pattern of delivering the software from the requirements all the way into live, which I mean, I’m using it in particular to reference literally the repository system that we use and the integrations then with, change and deployment.

[00:10:19] Zoe Cunningham: Yeah. And obviously all of those bits are things we’ve created. See, it’s, it’s, it’s, I find this topic so fascinating because the things that are now adding complexity are all, tools that we humans have built to simplify and help the process. Yeah. And so it’s exactly what you’re saying about when do you add more and when do you add less?

[00:10:44] And I think. Another reason which, which again you, you mentioned earlier, is that everything is case by case. We, we want there to be one answer. We want there to be one rule book. You know, we love the idea of writing out a process manual or, you know, these are the steps. Just follow these steps. But we all know the skill of engineering is not to follow a set of steps because a computer can do that. You know, it’s to have those guide you to come up with your own solutions.

[00:11:18] So are there principles we can use or are we always on our own and always kind of fighting in these weeds of saying, what do I use now? It could be anything.

[00:11:30] Rachael Morgan: It is a really good question, and it’s something that I think about all the time because I, I think it’s the, just enough, it’s that Goldilocks, it’s the three bears and the porridge being just right for me.

[00:11:46] And that’s so difficult because naturally I think as humans, we want to control things, and when we are delivering something, we’re delivering that piece of value. The people who we’re delivering that for, whether the stakeholders in the business and even the teams working on it, want to know when it’s gonna be done. Like how can we make this predictable as possible?

[00:12:08] Zoe Cunningham: Right?

[00:12:08] Rachael Morgan: Technology isn’t predictable. Most of the time, in my experience.

[00:12:14] Zoe Cunningham: Mm-hmm. It’s not completely predictable right?

[00:12:16] Rachael Morgan: It’s not an easy answer. I’m not sure I’m gonna, you know, I couldn’t sit here and put my hand on my heart and go, yes Zoe, I’ve got this sorted. I absolutely know that if you apply Bob Principle X, Y, Z to this, it will just completely revolutionise the way that you deliver. I think this is a question that we as tech leaders need to be asking, need to be reviewing.

[00:12:39] I think this is where we should be looking at the wider industry, you know, what are other people doing? What are the kind of schools of thought here? And then being tenacious when we are applying a process to think about things like what metrics do we need to track? And what’s the impact of tracking that metric? And then thinking about, well, how, what’s the minimum amount of process that we need to put in place to track perhaps this, this particular metric?

[00:13:04] I think that’s where I would be looking and then reviewing it as you go, because process is quite sneaky. I find that it kind of, you know, like people are well intentioned, I don’t believe people generally arrive at work to do a bad job. They want to do well, and they want to make things better.

[00:13:22] But they might put in a process, a sneaky little process that suddenly becomes this massive thing. And then you are sitting there going, how did we, how did we create this? And this is not giving us the results that we want and we have created this, this mess!

[00:13:38] Zoe Cunningham: Yes, exactly. And then it’s also this, challenge of, something I’ve definitely found is that I have a tendency to, if I’m trying something new, maybe particularly anything I’m sceptical of.

[00:13:50] I can be like, yeah, we’ll do it this week. We’ll see what happens. Or maybe we’ll do it for another week. Nope, definitely doesn’t work. Now we’re gonna stop it. It’s not helping. And so again, it’s this balance between trying something for long enough and in enough different situations that you really have understood what it can and can’t do. But at the same time, not hampering yourself with a process that isn’t serving you.

[00:14:18] Rachael Morgan: Yeah, I completely agree. I also think there’s a place here for leadership communities, so we’ve all obviously got IP and information that is, is specific to our companies that we could never disclose. However, the conversation that I think is really valuable and we should be having across the industry is, what processes are you using?

[00:14:37] How are you getting from A to B? What’s working for you? What isn’t working for you? I think it’s really important to still make sure that you are challenging yourself to, as you said, try new, new processes. But also going and speaking to people in different industries, understanding what they’re doing and learning from them, and then bringing nuggets of that into what you are doing.

[00:15:02] Zoe Cunningham: It’s the combination, isn’t it, of learning. either by reading books, like I’ve always been a bit a big book reader in terms of getting new ideas, but definitely by talking to other people and learning from their experience. But it’s, a skill, this kind of slightly unusual skill of yes, it, that’s part of it, but then you also need to be applying it because you can’t just learn a perfect technique in the vacuum. And then… and then it’s done. Yes. It’s actually an interactive process with something you learn by doing.

[00:15:37] Rachael Morgan: And there will be that moment, I’m sure, for any leader that’s listening to this, where you are asked to do a scary something, a scary deliverable, to do something, to get something done. And you have that moment of opportunity where you can say, yes, I will.

[00:15:53] And then, oh, I could use this to, to help enable it. I can get my team together, discuss how we approach it, you know, apply all of the things that I’m learning and I’m reading. Or you can take the perhaps more comfortable route of going. Oh, hmm, hmm. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe I won’t step into it, or, yes, I will, but I’m gonna follow everything that exists within the ecosystem as it is.

[00:16:23] Now, it may be that actually you have a standard process in your organisation for delivery that you have to follow, that you know that it does exist in regulated industries. But I still think there’s a place then for those leaders to be questioning.

[00:16:34] Why is this the way it is? What’s going on here that’s meant that we’ve need to follow this process? Why does this exist? I mean, one of the, the things I’ve looked into in the past, and I really do try and dig into is the phrase, ‘oh, we do this because of an audit’. But what is it in the audit that means that we need to do this. And I’m really, I’m probably quite picky in the sense that I like to know what part of the audit, what is the specific requirement, right? Because I want to understand both from a responsibility perspective, but also I want to understand what, what were we marking ourselves against.

[00:17:10] Zoe Cunningham: And it’s such a good point because I think that’s also true. So what’s… I haven’t done a lot of work, personally in regulated industries, but what you’ve just described, it sounds to me exactly the way that I think you have to treat user requirements because users often have an idea of what they need from a system, in a very specific way, particularly if they’ve been using another system already to achieve something.

[00:17:40] Like, I need this report and I need this button, and I need it to do this. And it’s only by digging into, what’s the need underneath that? What’s the need underneath that? That you can find other ways rather than just replicating. ’cause you are also talking there about trying to run a project by replicating what someone else has done.

[00:18:01] And that can be useful, but it’s definitely not going to be the best way. That’s one thing that’s guaranteed, right? And actually I think there’s so much more value in bringing new information into a situation, right? So actually we don’t wanna build a system that’s already been built that someone can already use.

[00:18:20] You want to find a better way to serve the underlying needs, whether that is the regulatory point or a user, something the user understands they need to deliver.

[00:18:32] Rachael Morgan: Yeah. I completely agree. I think it’s really, it’s really important as tech leaders to be thinking and learning and questioning.

[00:18:43] Zoe Cunningham: Alright, so in this struggle between too much process and too little is, is agile, we kind of touched on agile briefly earlier. Is this the way out? Is this, well, we’ll do a bit of process for a bit and then we’ll stop and review and do a bit of process for a bit.

[00:19:01] Rachael Morgan: Oh, I don’t, I don’t think there’s one thing that solves everything, and I don’t think that agile is the solution to all the problems that people might face in the messy middle of a tech delivery.

[00:19:17] I think it’s a good thing to reference, to understand and to think about how you could use elements of agile or agile principles to enable perhaps delivery to be smoother, communications within teams to be more aligned. I think there’s a lot of wealth in there, but this applies to every single process that I can think of.

[00:19:42] I would be very cautious about applying everything of something just because I liked the idea of it in theory, because the reality of the situation may mean that what you end up doing is creating chaos.

[00:20:01] Zoe Cunningham: Yes.

[00:20:01] Rachael Morgan: What do you think, Zoe?

[00:20:02] Zoe Cunningham: No, no. Well, actually, so I do have thoughts on this because, and you’ve, you’ve basically alluded to them already because I, I, I love, I do personally love agile and I found that I kind of started applying it outside of, of work and outside of software delivery and started thinking of everything as like, well, actually I want to do a little bit and review, review it and do some just in time delivery and not fix all my problems before they get there.

[00:20:30] However, that doesn’t mean I’m having, you know, a standup with myself every day to talk about my life. In fact, quite the opposite. And I think that it’s this difference between the process of agile, which, like you say, there are many components to it that are useful in different situations and in different ways, and can be applied in different ways, or you can, you can vary the process, and the spirit and principles of agile, which actually is what I think is most useful. So you’ve, yes, you’ve very cleverly answered that.

[00:21:04] But let’s move on to the messiest of all messy things that we have to deal with, which is obviously people. And in my experience, all people are different. And I suppose all people are therefore messy in different ways, which is even messier, isn’t it?

[00:21:21] But this is something else that I’ve moved on… When I started as a leader, I really wanted to correct, I really wanted to fix people’s messiness and make people predictable and you know, calm people down and all of those kind of things, which, which has a place. But now I’m much more keen on how do we utilise this messiness?

[00:21:39] Actually, we are learning some of the things that we thought only people could do, computers can do. They’re kind of able to do more and more, and it’s these real messy bits of being human that computers are never gonna do. So how can we use them and, and, and utilise them rather than just trying to control them?

[00:21:58] Rachael Morgan: It’s a brilliant question. My take on it is start with trying to understand them. You will probably never… humans are nuanced, humans are wonderful. We are all individuals. Like you said, we are all very different and I think that’s fabulous and that in itself is an amazing opportunity for a leader.

[00:22:19] You’ll have a team of people, and understanding the strengths within your team. What are the, the key areas that somebody is particularly passionate about has a particular skill in, you know, and, and then really using that in the process of delivering the outcome that you are working towards.

[00:22:39] You know, we’ve all got specific skills that we might be particularly excellent at, or particular skills that we want to develop more and will become skills that we become excellent at.

[00:22:50] I think understanding your team then is, is really key. And I think if you’ve got… If you’ve got a larger team then perhaps, you know, you are able to understand everybody within your team’s particular kind of, individualities. Instilling that leadership style within your leadership team is important.

[00:23:11] So we all have the fundamentals of a job that we will need to do. I’m a Head of Technology. I’m accountable for the services and the delivery within my particular remit. That’s a given. But I have particular skills that might be very different to one of my peers who’s also a Head of Technology. In fact, I know I do because I work closely with them, and that’s wonderful and really interesting.

[00:23:36] But how do you then utilise that as an organisation, as a team? And I think that’s, that’s something that I’m really passionate about.

[00:23:43] Zoe Cunningham: Mm. And again, an example of everything’s not just one size fits all. It’s all in technology. The complexity of it is always about how do you solve all of these individual details?

[00:23:56] Rachael Morgan: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:57] Zoe Cunningham: So Rachael, given that everything, everything on a technology project is pretty much guaranteed to be messy to one extent or another, how do you know when you are right in the middle of a project and something is going wrong… How do you know whether what you are facing is this normal part of the process that you need to stick with it, innovate, fix it, it will all get better. Or whether it’s a catastrophe in the making and you need to do something more severe to totally change direction, to pause the project or even halt the project completely? Because I feel like we often feel when we look back on projects and we go, oh yeah, that I thought that was terrible and actually it was fine. How do you know when you are, when you’re in the thick of it?

[00:24:48] Rachael Morgan: Mm, that’s a really good question. And I think for me it comes back to things like… Looking at your metrics, but doing that in a way with the team or teams that are working on the particular piece of work, and then having that continuous communication and dialogue throughout the delivery. So you never really want the scenario where you might be two weeks into the project, nobody’s spoken to each other, and suddenly pop somebody, pops their head up and goes, ‘this is not working, it is a complete disaster’. And that’s the first communication that you’ve had. Now that’s, that’s not great from a project delivery perspective. It’s also not great for the individual that…that’s quite a lot for them to be carrying, but also that’s a missed opportunity where there are people around them that could support them.

[00:25:34] You know, nobody should be on their own in a delivery. So I think looking at your metrics, having good communication structures that just exist, whether it’s good news, bad news, neutral news, just a continuous kind of way of reporting so that it doesn’t become a negative thing. Because I think that reporting can become a negative thing.

[00:25:55] And then I think we’re back onto things like, you know, how much reporting, which links back to, you know, what we were talking about process. But Zoe, what do you think?

[00:26:05] Zoe Cunningham: I, I, look, I think that… The reason I enjoy doing podcasts, here’s the secret, is I love listening to the answers that guests give me because that helps me to pick things out and go, oh yes, that links with that, and that links with that.

[00:26:21] And in almost all situations, you know, because we’ve, we’ve all been in the same positions. I’m very often hearing things that chime with what I think but illuminate different sides of it. And so I don’t know if I could have phrased this answer until I just heard your answer, which is why it’s so important to have conversations.

[00:26:45] But now I have, I think it’s exactly something we’ve touched on so, so much already. The understanding that everything is continuous and everything is changing. And actually this idea of a project as discreet and as it starts and it finishes or it is successful or it’s a failure. Those are all human constructs where we try and control things and try and tie them down in some way.

[00:27:14] But really it’s constantly moving and constantly changing. And, and again, as you say, as a leader, you’re not on your own. You’ve got your whole team and you are all working together You’ve possibly even people from other teams. Or people above you or people on the board who are actually all invested in getting this made. And actually it’s about communicating and working together and just navigating the seas.

[00:27:41] Rachael Morgan: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:42] Zoe Cunningham: To bring it back to The Digital Lighthouse.

[00:27:44] I just want to throw one last question at you because this is one that always entertains and challenges me, right? We are always, as leaders, thinking about challenges with our team and their individual people, and they’ve got different ways we need to treat them. But of course, we are people too, and we are just as human and messy as everyone else. So what do we do about that? How do we incorporate that into what we’re doing?

[00:28:11] Rachael Morgan: I think doing the work to try and understand yourself is really important and really leaning into that as a leader. So asking yourself, why did you feel like that? Why did you do something? What was the underlying motive?

[00:28:27] Spending time thinking, reviewing, reflecting, and really doing that on a consistent basis is something that has definitely changed how I’ve thought about myself and my role as a leader.

[00:28:45] As a minimum, every Friday I spend some time towards the end of the day really reflecting on, you know, what have my successes of the week been? What have the areas of failure, what have the emotions that I’ve seen and felt myself experience at different points. And then why might I have been feeling like that? And, and then, you know, over time really asking those questions, I, I’ve found that you get better at understanding yourself.

[00:29:12] And then when you are in those moments of kind of, you know, your, your emotion might be at a level that’s completely out of line with the conversation that you might be having, you might have a bit more of an insight as to, you know, why you feel like that. And I think constantly trying to discover yourself.

[00:29:30] Zoe Cunningham: Understand your team. Understand yourself.

[00:29:33] Rachael Morgan: Yeah. I mean, they’re only small things, right? So we’ve got this sorted.

[00:29:38] Zoe Cunningham: Oh, thank you so much, Rachael. It’s been an absolute joy. I’ve never had so much fun right in the middle of the mess of it. Thanks for coming on The Digital Lighthouse.

[00:29:46] Rachael Morgan: Thank you so much.

[00:29:48] Zoe Cunningham: This Digital Lighthouse episode was edited by Steve Folland and produced by Patrick Anderson.

[00:29:53] The theme music was written and recorded by Ben Baylow. A huge thanks to our sponsor Softwire for their continuing support from the inception of the show in 2019 to the present day.

[00:30:03] If you love the podcast, please let us know with a rating and review on your platform of choice. We are always looking for feedback to ensure we’re making the best show possible.

[00:30:12] And of course, if you’d like to take part, please drop us a line at [email protected].

[00:30:18] You’ve been listening to The Digital Lighthouse with me Zoe Cunningham. Thank you for sharing your time with us and stay safe on this wild technological ride that we are all on.